Old Wines Wednesday, Oct 3 2007
How long do you leave a wine in the cellar for? In Australia most wine sold at retail is consumed within 24 hours of sale. Ask any person at cellar door what the most frequent question they get asked is and invariably they will say “How long will the wine age for.” I started placing wine in my cellar and buying Bordeaux indents about 25 years ago because I had consumed some old Bordeaux and thought they were very good and also because I didn’t particularly care for the young Bordeaux.
We had a second night of old discoveries from the cellar a few days ago and as a result I would like to make a few comments based on my experience. Firstly, most of the wines consumed were Australian but 6 were European. Overall, 30% of the wines showed TCA, i.e cork taint. The Europeans had about the same figure but there sample was small. I also found that wines that were clean with good fruit but higher tannins tended to age the best. If a wine showed a lot of green pepper cabernet character when young it still has it when old. Old German Rieslings appear not to develop the kerosene nose that I don’t like. The most amazing observation was that many big company wines that were well priced when young, did soften and showed improvement to about 10 to 15 years. All of which gets me back to my suggestion that one needs to cellar at least 4 bottles and then work out a time frame to revisit them. If you cellar more then you can leave one or two to see how long they will last for. The days of screwcap and diam closures will help too. The other factor to remember is that ideally you want a dark cellar at about 60% humidity with a constant temperature, preferably at 16 or lower. I have a problem doing all this because I like Pinot so much I tend to consume it all within five years, but that’s my own silly fault.
Print this article
eMail this article
28 Responses to “Old Wines”
October 4th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
David, did you have a chance to compare some old Aussie Riesling against the old Germans? I haven’t had the opportunity to taste old Aus Reisling so just wondering whether the fruit in the Aus Rieslings do eventually get swamped by the petroleum nuances.
Due to financial restrictions, I tend to get just 3 bottles if I’m really interested in following up a wine. One for now, one in 5, then the last in 10. Of course the time to open the final bottle is also dependent on how the 2nd bottle is showing after 5.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Some Australian rieslings show very little kero character and some are covered in it. It is seen by many (John Vickery, Grosset) to be a fault and the problem is considered by some to originate in the vineyard and others think it due to oxidative handling in the winery (although I can’t see how this is true considering how some Euro’s are made). You don’t seem to get it nearly as much in German and Alsatian wines.
GW
October 4th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
We had a Pipers Brook from 1997 that was quite clean and without the kero character. It is my experience that cooler clime Rieslings such as Tassie, Drumborg, etc show less kero if any.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
I have a few bottles of Wynns cabernet ‘98 - the second wine I ever bought a dozen of. They have not been kept in correct cellaring conditions. I will open one soon to see how they are looking.
The first wine I ever bought a dozen of was Penfolds Bin 28 1998, back in March 2001. I have one bottle left, incorrectly cellared as above. Some have been excellent, some tasting baked and hard - due to storage probably or maybe stipped of flavour by TCA.
I don’t like kero character in riesling, and I haven’t tried too many aged rieslings from Australia that I’ve enjoyed. I like ‘em young - I bought a few bottles of Petaluma ‘07 two weeks ago and they’re all gone.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
1980 Petaluma is outstanding. No kero.
GW
October 4th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Good sense would suggest that light (or the lack of it), humidity and stable temperatures are critical factors in the cellaring process.
However the recent discovery of a forgotten case of 1982 wine made from Everton in NE Victoria confounds this. Forgotten and kept in a metal locker for the last 10 years in a car port where the temperatiure fluctuates from minus 4 to plus 40 the wine opened beautifully - go figure?
October 4th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
I think David is right. The aroma of kerosine comes from substances called TDN and Riesling Acetal that mainly develop in grapes grown in warmer conditions. My experience is that older Rieslings from warm vintages or areas show more kerosene indeed. I’m not sure though whether kerosene can also be seen as a consequence of faulty winemaking.
October 4th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Probably the most astounding Riesling I have had was Leo Buring DWC17 1973, the last bottle of which I consumed in 1993 with my father on his birthday. Amazingly fresh with no Kero/petro characters at all - just all lively acidity (still) with citrus and floral characters. I have not had much of a chance to try many Euro riesling - my living locales have tended to make it hard to get much other than the liquor barn specials until the last year or so. I have also started to feel that some of the more modern wines really don’t age with the same grace as some of the older versions.
I also share Davids preference for old Bordeaux with recently consumed samples including 1982 and 1990 Pichon Baron and a 1990 Leoville Las Cases - all showing excellent structure, good fruit, tannins that were settling (though the 82 was a bit fatter than the 90’s and closer to falling over - the two younger wines still with 5-10 ahead of them).
A slow rebuild of the cellar after being forced to drink much of it too early in life to avoid my ex forcing a sale at auction purely for the monetary benefit (given she is a non-drinker) is under way, with around 18 doz now, including approx 1 1/2 doz of Bordeaux, as well as large variety of Aussie wines from the last 4 or 5 years (regionally dependant) - so looking forward to some good drinking in a decade or so.
October 4th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
BL - was the “Everton” you refer to from Brown Bros (not the more recent reincarnated label, but from the original Everton v’yard)? I recall trying a BB “Everton” Cabernet from early 70s that came out in about ‘86 as a limited release/family reserve wine(not 100% on the vintage now - it was consumed in late 80s, so the memory is a little dim). However, if your 82 is from the same vineyard, I am not surprised it was drinking very well - I do remember that much of the wine.
October 4th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Darryl
I was part of a small group that bought a section of the original Everton vineyard from John Brown in the late 1970’s. The wine that I referred to was made in the old garage at Giaconda with Rick Kinzbrunner - pretty basic equipment but obviously under the guidance of a master.
October 4th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Jules you got the right stuff. The wynns and Penfolds have tended to do well with 10 years.
BL, the Everton vineyard used to produce cooler fruit than many other N.East Vic wines and yes the time frame you talk of did age well. You can get perfect corks and if you did they seal very well so it sounds like you got some.
I too have seen some great Rieslings with age from Australia in warmer climes but it is variable. Look at the price of many of our excellent young RR such as GW just reviewed and who cares, slep em away now. I have seen some for as low as $14 that are meant to be nearly double that.
October 4th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
My storage area is OK but not perfect so I rarely cellar beyond 7-10 years in recognition of that reality. I have about 70 doz I think.
I keep wines cellar according to Crabtree’s dictum: If you taste a wine and can’t imagine it getting any better then you should drink any other bottle you have ASAP (or words to that effect).
I don’t like young reds, except some of the fresher Euro styles, so cellar to soften the tannins and develop the flavours (like chocolate in Barossa Shiraz). It’s also my experience that some big company cheapies benefit from a few years. Most Oz Pinots and Chardonnays, even the very good ones, seem to fall over well before 5 years so I knock them off fairly quickly. Few Oz whites aside from Riesling, Semillon or marsanne seem to reward cellaring. Generally I cellar to:
- shiraz and shiraz/cabernets 7 years
- cabernet 6-10 years depending
- straight Grenache - now or up to 3 years
- GSMs 3 years (but Nine Popes 7 years)
- Riesling 3 - 6 years depending
- Semillon 6 years
- marsanne 6 years
- Shiraz Viognier and Cab Merlot blends - now or up to 3 years but 7 years for Clonakilla
Technical question: How relevant is the humidity level when it’s under screwcap?
October 4th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Humidity is not important for screwcap.
GW
October 5th, 2007 at 7:55 am
Humidity is relevant for the label. Higher humidity levels encourage mould on labels and some labels seem far more sensitive than others.
October 8th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
I’m surprised no one’s piped up about Tahbilk. I’ve not cellared any of them myself, but I certainly hear from enough people who have. Not surprising considering the accessible price. Gary’s review of the 2004 cabernet made me think of this.
October 8th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
I reviewed some older Tahbilk last year but I have not been as much of a fan as GW.
October 9th, 2007 at 12:17 am
I had my 2nd/last bottle of 1981 Tahbilk cab on the weekend. As with the first, it had been recorked, had a new plastic capsule and there was still some scumminess around the lip of the bottle. The label of both looked original and were in good condition. There was red cherry fruit, leather and still chewy tannins but I don’t think the fruit was as bright as the first bottle and there was noticeably more tannins, more sediment. It seems both bottles had been clinic’d and I don’t know the extent to which that process may have reflected the Penfold’s clinics.
Nonetheless it was interesting but perhaps 86/100, the previous bottle 89/100.
daz
October 15th, 2007 at 9:33 am
I wonder if the conventional ‘rules’ about storage are too stringent. Now that we know that variations in cork closures can cause bottle-to-bottle variations in an otherwise identical batch of wine, I wonder if storage conditions are as important as we think (thought?). It is possible that control over storage conditions was intended to deal with a problem that is a consequence of problems with the closure.
We may find that wine is actually quite robust, and that it will stand up quite well as long as it is not baked or frozen and we can still read the label.
October 15th, 2007 at 9:52 am
I don’t think the quality of cellaring conditions can be emphasised enough for white wine. It is critical.
I’d agree that some bigger reds can take some knocking about (although better not to). Penfolds seem to be especially rugged. I have had some surprising bottles kept in passive (Sydney) conditions that have been excellent, however, the well cellared examples are usually better.
GW
October 15th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Another David short story. The wineries of my region asked 4 media people to assess Pinot Noir from 2004 vintage. I was responsible for freighting the wine. I had the wine on my tasting room deck in morning shade waiting for the freight company to collect. The front boxes received a little exposure from the sun, maybe an hour at an air temperature of 18C. One of the media people told us that some of the wines were not as he knew them and asked for replacements, describing them as cooked. He is a Melbourne based writer and the wine left here early afternoon and arrived to him 24 hours later. This was Pinot Noir and the media person was very concerned. It is my experience that freight/heat can knock a wine but if it is a moderate impact ie sub 30C for less than a 2 to 3 days then the wine will bounce back. That is why many people still pay wine cellar companies money to look after their assets.
October 28th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Do you think getting wine from sydney and south, or even west oz, frieghted to brisbane would do the wine harm? Especially on 30 plus days.
October 28th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Absolutely.
GW
October 29th, 2007 at 10:55 am
PS. As an adjunct to this I hate the fact that Mount Mary release ship in November. Sydney people can’t do winery pickup. Rockford also released too late this year.
GW
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
this is why dr carrodus releases in may, and im guessing yeringberg etc
August 4th, 2008 at 8:06 am
David.
I’m interested that the comment was made above that Aussie/NZ pinot doesn’t tend to cellar. How does this align with the drinking dates that both you and/or the winemaker advise? I’ve been sticking away quite a few pinot - esp ones with good structure on the premise that they will improve over 5 years and drink over 10. Are there characteristics in pinot which tend to suggest they will or won’t cellar?
August 5th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
I have reviewed older PN quite regularly. If cellaring is OK then 5 years is not unreasonable and 10 is quite possible. The key point to remember is that there are no GOLDEN rules. Your palate may find a wine is perfect at 2 years and then again your best wine drinking companion may hate it. Five years later they may love it and you may hate it. The key points are track record, vintage and having enough put aside to try it regularly. The internet is almost an evil enemy to this suggestion because people believe they can learn by the experience of others who cellar the same wine yet their palate preferences can be very different. I tend to believe the more personal effort you put into a cellar the greater the reward, cutting corners via the internet and reviewers is dangerous. Few reviewers revisit their old reviews apart from the classic cabernet writers such as Broadbent.
August 6th, 2008 at 1:47 am
Too many new wines to review, David. Still, some do drag out the occasional older wine and post reviews. I’ll miss Linc’s reviews of older Tahbilks, for example
August 6th, 2008 at 7:45 am
I’ll do some of those sorts of things here still.
GW